Interesting article in Haartez"Thousands of Palestinian families spent their holidays far from their parents and children. According to data from the statistics department of the PA Ministry of Prisoners Affairs, last June about 10,100 Palestinian prisoners, including 335 minors and 104 women, were being held in Israeli incarceration facilities and prisons. Some 369 prisoners have been held for more than 12 years. In other words, they were imprisoned before the Oslo Accords and the establishment of the PA, and were not released after the Oslo Accords. Of these veteran prisoners, 45 have been held for more than 20 years, and seven of the 45 have been held for more than 25 years. Most of the prisoners - 55 percent - were never tried or convicted. They might actually be considered kidnapped. ... " Click to read the entire article.
Read this rather strange article --"Something Rotten in Israel". A friend more familiar with internal Israeli debates said that this conversation was growing:
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Wow...this is one of the most interesting articles I've read in while.
I found a few parts most intriguing. For one, I felt the viewpoint of the authors was really interesting because they seem to blame both the crumbling of the Israeli spirit and of Israel itself on the extreme secularism within Israeli society. They don't seem to point the finger at much besides the apparent drifting away from traditional Jewish life style.
One argument made in the article which I didn't agree on was the idea that for Israel to have succeeded, the leading center for the study of Jewish history would have to be in Israel. I find that a strange argument being that most Jewish history did not occur in Israel...Israel was merely a goal or a prize throughout much of Jewish history.
I thought this article was funny as well because they are so openly enraged with Israeli leadership, arguing that the leadership "always finds itself facing a moral question mark- the public faith has been completely lost." This statement, however, could be used against any U.S. President and many U.S. governmental officials. What's funny is that in the "most democratic nation in the world" we find less of this sort of anti-leadership mentality expressed in mainstream U.S. media than many other countries.
I agree with yardena about the fact that their views showed a concern over a secularization of Israel. However, what interested me was that they were pushing for a renewal of Zionism, "with capital Z". There were two matters that I thought were interesting. First that their push for a renewal of Zionism (with a "capital Z") re-affrims the views of many non-israelis that Israel is based on Zionism, which many Jews disagree with. And secondly, it showed that they were relating Zionism with what traditional Judaism should look like, while many Rabbi's and Orthodox Jews would find that quite disturbing. That brings up the point of what exactly Judaism is in the current world, and how do Israeli's and other jews around the world see it? I would very much like to know what my jewish classmates views are on this issue.
The 'Israel's Downfall?' article was very suprising to me, as the two scholars have an extremely pessimistic view of not only the status of Israel but its future as well. Most people focus on the outside threats from others, but these guys are not afraid to criticize their own culture and adress its shortcomings.
They both seem to be saying that Israel is not what it used to be, and that Israel's identity has changed to a point where it ceases to be Jewish. They find fault with the education system, the political leadership, but more importantly the attitude of individuals. The argument is that in order for Israel to survive, all people must cooperate and work for the good of the nation, not for self improvement or gain.
Professor Aumann says "We lack Zionism with a capital Z. We've become post-Zionists, the number one enemy of ourselves; yes, I don’t forget it's all because of us. Just because of us. My people has simply gone mad"
Mustafa brings up a good point when he asks what Judaism is in the current world. Aumann seems to be arguing that the majority of 'my people' have strayed from the correct path. I am also very interested in what other jews have to say about this. Do his views have credit or is he on the fringe, unable to accept the changes in Judaism in the modern world?
In reading this article I thought of an unlikely and most likely controversial comparison. Do the ideas of these scholars resemble the ideas of the Iranian Islamic Revolution? Both argue that their leaders have become ineffectual and corrupt, the Israelis through personal misconduct and lack of an agenda or vision, and the Shah of Iran because of political repression and corruption. Both argue that their identity is being diluted or changed through internal mechanisms. Finally, both argue that the solution to this problem is the revitaliztion of religion into the society. The Israeli scholars see the lack of Zionism and the lack of Jewish studies as obstacles to their development and even survival. The Islamic revolution held the philosophy that Islam had made Iran/Persia a great power back in the day (15the century or so) and it was the loss of this religiosity in everyday life that has caused their current marginalized state of affairs. A return to Islam would bring about the scientific, technological, and religious achievements that they once had. Both look to the past glory as the framework for the future.
The notion that Israel is experiencing some kind of internal trouble is overshadowed by the American media, who often opt for images of troops marching or other examples of Israeli military might. Both of these experts believe the threat Israel faces concerns the country's vision and direction. Israel's ruling elite has shown it's ability to fight and deter day to day terrorism but the larger picture includes maintaining a strong Jewish identity. Professor Ciechanover talks of, "...an educational deterioration at all levels. Even when speaking to those possessing academic degrees, I find garbled language, the lack of cultural depth, and ignorance when it comes to general history and the history of the Jewish people."
Israel- the Jewish state, must not allow itself to be considered ignorant in any facet of Judaism.
With that said...Mustafa, Judaism is primarily the same monotheistic religious doctrine it has been for centuries. It can also be considered a non-religious ideology; for example non-believers with Jewish ancestry may still consider themselves Jewish. Regardless of religious affiliation, descendants of Jewish people around the world believe Israel, Jerusalem, and the Western Wall are uniting factors that give them a sense of identity and belonging.
Adam makes a good point concerning non-believers with Jewish ancestry may still consider themselves Jewish. I am Jewish but I do not practice the religion as one who was more strictly religious would. I believe that many Jews believe they are part of a Jewish culture that shares more than just religious practices but other common beliefs. Nonetheless, I find the article with the two professors extremely interesting. There are many examples in history of groups of people who used spirit to invoke great changes. The Jewish society was full of spirit after the holocaust, in their efforts to form a nation. Certainly, a decay of spirit is indicative of Israel which lacks direction to move forward and bring peace in the region. Leaders who do not ask themselves if they are making measurable progression are likely to be out of office in due time. I do think there is some importance to making Israel the “largest global center for Jewish thinking.” If a nation wants to raise national spirit, they need symbolic people, places, or things. An education center or place of great intellectual thinking is a great way to spurn such development. Maybe people need to be pessimistic to see what they are doing wrong, but it is my hope that these professors can be a tool to promote a change in spirit. They show the intellectual ability to look in and see the need for change, now I wonder if they can look outward and express ways to promote that change.
For whatever reason, I was unable to see the first article, but the second one was a good read.
It was interesting to see a negative view of Israel as I've certainly never seen one before, what with living in America. While the two professors in he article certainly know what they're talking about, it's not something I'd put a whole lot of stock into. I mean, is there any nation on the face of this Earth that doesn't have at least two academics who think their country is going down the tubes? I would doubt it. I'd say it's their nation's growing secularity that most bothers them, and if I had a dollar for every time a religious leader said some tenet of modern secular life would lead to society's downfall, I'd be a rich man. Furthermore, assailing the average Israeli for their lack of culture, knowledge and rhetorical skill is pretty absurd. Once again, there is no nation on the face of the Earth where the average person off the street is going to be on the same intellectual playing field as a Nobel laureate. And government elites using meaningless buzzwords and generally being ambiguous without offering any direction? That's hardly a phenomenon restricted to Israel. It's called politics. Is Israel's agenda being more selfish? Well yes, but that's a natural process. Israel's place as a state in the international community is now assured, and when that is secured there is room for some degree of selfishness. Not to be overly dramatic, but without "selfishness" as they describe it - looking out for one's own interests really - we wouldn't be human. It's what people do. This is not an Israeli problem but plain old human nature, and it’s a waste of time to complain about human nature.
After first reading the article by Akiva Eldar I naturally assumed that the following article, “Something Rotten in Israel”, would be related and that the “Rot” being referred to was the imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians that have been locked away in Israeli jails for upwards to 12 years. Even after I started reading the article it wasn’t until the fifth paragraph that I realized that what the two professors feared would bring about Israel’s downfall was what they call “educational deterioration at all levels” citing a “lack of cultural depth” and “ignorance when it comes to general history and the history of the Jewish people.”
I feel that it is kind of odd that two Nobel Prize laureates feel that out of all things affecting the state of Israel right now that this topic poses the greatest danger and chastise Israel’s leadership on this issue and not on how it mismanaged the war in Lebanon or how it continues to prevent any kind of peace from being achieved in Gaza and the West Bank.
I failed to see why they feel this is such a danger. I also fail to see why they believe there will not be any “high-quality science” in Israel without developed humanities or Jewish studies. If anything is rotting Israel from the inside out it is their lack of humanity towards the Palestinian people and the destruction of their culture that is literally being bulldozed into non-existence.
After first reading the article by Akiva Eldar I naturally assumed that the following article, “Something Rotten in Israel”, would be related and that the “Rot” being referred to was the imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians that have been locked away in Israeli jails for upwards to 12 years. Even after I started reading the article it wasn’t until the fifth paragraph that I realized that what the two professors feared would bring about Israel’s downfall was what they call “educational deterioration at all levels” citing a “lack of cultural depth” and “ignorance when it comes to general history and the history of the Jewish people.”
I feel that it is kind of odd that two Nobel Prize laureates feel that out of all things affecting the state of Israel right now that this topic poses the greatest danger and chastise Israel’s leadership on this issue and not on how it mismanaged the war in Lebanon or how it continues to prevent any kind of peace from being achieved in Gaza and the West Bank.
I failed to see why they feel this is such a danger considering that there are plently of people in the United States that know next to nothing of American history. I also fail to see why they believe there will not be any “high-quality science” in Israel without developed humanities or Jewish studies. If anything is rotting Israel from the inside out it is their lack of humanity towards the Palestinian people and the destruction of their culture that is literally being bulldozed into non-existence.
In response to what Mustafa said, that there Orthodox Jews do not believe in Zionism and so not support Israel, I think there is way too much generalizing in that argument. The proportion of Orthodox and other ultra-religious Jews who DO support Israel and do consider themselves Zionists strongly outweighs the proportion of Jews who disagree with Zionism. I am not sure of these exact statistics, and I'm not sure where they could be found, but I'm confident in saying that thepercentage of Orthodox Jews who believe Israel should not exist is probably something like 1%. Most of these Jews belong to the Chassidic sect of Judaism, who interpret the Torah in a way that causes them to believe it is wrong for Jews to live in Israel until the Messiah comes. Most Jews, however, do not interpret the Torah this way at all.
If you were to go to the annual Israeli independence day parade in New York City, you would see these Jews protesting against the parade with their anti-Zionist posters and what not. You would also see that while there are about 30 of these guys lined up, there are thousands upon thousands of Jews celebrating Israeli independence.
The argument that "many Othodox jews would find [Zionism] disturbing" also makes little sense because many Orthodox Jews flock to Jerusalem to live their spiritual lives the best way they see possible.
I think Stefan's comparison of the movement explained in this article to the Islamic Revolutionary movement is extremely interesting. I would never think to compare the two, and with his thoughts on the notion, I can also see that although these beliefs are different in many ways, they do share a common goal- a return to a less secular, religiously alligned state. On the other hand, I do not think that this movement would gain much backing in Israel, in contrast to the strongly support Iranian Revolution. Israel is a state of extreme religious freedom, and I feel that the majority of Israelis pride themselves on this. Wether or not they are secular or religious, I think Israelis enjoy their great sense of liberty in their religious lives.
I myself partly agree with the ideas expressed in this article, and I think many Israelis probably do as well. However, a return to a more religious state is something I do not see ocurring any time soon in Israel. That is, unless the Orthodox Jews start having 15 babies instead of just 8 and are able to take so much control over the Israeli government that they force Israel to become a Jewish state on their terms. But that's something I don't really see happening any time soon either...
While I certainly found this article fascinating, I did find Professor Ciechanover’s comment that most Israeli’s possess a severe ignorance of both Israeli and the Jewish religion’s history and culture to be a bit dramatic. "There's an educational deterioration at all levels. Even when speaking to those possessing academic degrees, I find garbled language, the lack of cultural depth, and ignorance when it comes to general history and the history of the Jewish people.”
I’m not convinced that the safety of the state of Israel is jeopardized by it’s citizens lack of understanding of their own history; people need barely a deeper concept than the defense of one’s nation, land, and safety are paramount to all else when galvanization is required safeguard the safety of the nation. Most soldiers who fight for their country in conflicts throughout the world and world history probably had little idea of the details of their country’s constitution, founding documents, or the circumstances of their country’s emergence. I think that even if history and culture are neglected, the citizens of Israeli will defend it with as much fervor as any person defending his life and his land.
I was very surprised by the opinions expressed in the "Something Rotten in Israel" article. I would expect a country of 6 million people to be more united, especially considering the precarious position of Israel within the region. Even more surprising is the fact that these professors are making such statements about “The depletion of spirit (…) this is a cancer that has spread through Israeli society, through all its body parts” only a few months after Hezbollah reminded Israel of many of its neighbors’ resentment towards the Jewish state.
Every country has some internal strife and divide. But for a well respected Israeli professor to say “our internal cohesion is crumbling, the splits are tearing us on the inside” is an ominous sign for the country. Countries come together when they feel threatened; following the attacks of 9/11 President Bush’s approval rating reached 86%, flags waved from every house and “never forget” was on the bumper of every other car. Israel’s short history is filled with violence and war; it’s hard to believe that some Israelis are saying “the problem is not with our neighbors, the problem is with us.”
I first want to comment on the last section of the first article. I think these hearings are merely for show. I seriously doubt the judge puts two thoughts about the cases and the hearings are only held to give the impression of a fair justice system. While a man is detained for throwing rocks for months before he even sees the judge or his defender and then kept in prison after because he is seen as a security risk, men who attack a Palestinian farmers are not even questioned and are free to attack more people.
The thing that stuck out the most for me in the article on Israel’s downfall was when one of the professors says “It's not the external enemy that bothers me; we'll find a cure for it through our technology and wisdom.” Does this mean that one day they will be able to overpower the Palestinians or that they will find a way to finally create a successful peace agreement?
Both of the articles are so vital in understanding the coflict between Palestinians and Israeli's.Yes, thousandths are being held captive without conviction of a crime. Now understanding this creates sympathy for the palestinians on my part due that I have family memvbers that have been in and out of prison due to many reasons and most of them becasue they were in the worn place at the wrong time. This has happend over and oover again and I begin to think that it is only happening to mu family, but this is God's will. As an example for me to learn form there mistakes and understand that this wrong. It is very similar to the Palestinians, but the differencce is that i was born into privilege meaning that I was born an American citizen. As thanksgiving is aorund the corner and i m very thankful I live here then lets say Israel. The next article was very uplifitng to see that there is consensus out there that the state of Israel will implode rather then be destroyed externally. In a society where your friends can be your greatest enemies we are cought between a crossroads of doing "the right thing" compared to acting honorably. "It's truly pathetic that there's not even one person there that conveys some kind of inspiration. There's nobody you wish to talk to or whose ideas you want to hear." this was coming from Professor Ciechanover who also states that national pride has diminished significantly. That person who inspires us is something every individual is looking for and something Israel is lacking.
Prior to reading the first article, I wasn't aware of the prisoner situation. I wonder if Americans would still have such unwavering support for Israel if they knew about this.
The same thing has been occurring (though on a lesser scale) with prisoners in Guantanamo. And once Americans began to take notice of the hundreds of prisoners being held without charges or trials, people begane to really start talking about it. As a result of the public's condemnation of the policy, the military felt pressured and ended up releasing a number of prisoners.
This goes to show that most Americans DO care about this type of issue (even if the government doesn't), and if the media was to do a better job of covering the stories of these prisoners, people would listen and take action.
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