Are Pakistanis less prejudiced than Indians?
I was disappointed to read that when Pakistan beat India in a Cricket match this week in Bangalore they were rewarded with silence by thousands of cricket fans in the stadium. In contrast when India beat Pakistan in Karachi the crowds there roared with approval for the Indian team’s excellent performance. This culture of blaming Pakistan for all of India's problems, which often does not distinguish between Pakistanis and Indian Muslims may one day cause a terrible holocaust in India which will make the genocide in Gujarat 2002 look like a picnic. To read the entire article click here.
19 Comments:
Before I start,Dr.Khan, let me tell you that I read your columns regularly in the daily times and appreciate your balanced views.On a lot of occassions I find myself in agreement with them.
But,I have to differ from them with respect to this column.Let me explain.
Firstly,you are trying to generalise the attitude of Indians toward pakistanis based on the reaction of a cricket crowd.Let us step back in time to 1999.The venue was Chennai and India lost a thrilling test match.Eveyone was heartbroken but the chennai crowd gave the pakistani team a standing ovation and if you go thru the reports on next day,everyone in the pak team was thrilled that they got such a response which was totally unexpected.So,its not that Indians are always sore losers and pakistanis are gracious ones.Its just that depending on the atmosphere,there is one or the other reaction.If your idea is to pin down just Bangaloreans,then even there your hypothesis falls short.I am from Bangalore myself and I again ask you to step back in time.I want you to recollect the Baby Noor episode.This little child with a heart condition had come to my city for treatment.Not only did Banglore,its people and even the state government go out of their way to make them feel at home,they also poured their heart out to pray for a successful operation and thankfully everything went off well and the child returned home to a new life.The coverage this show of support got in Indian media was unprecendeted.Every small gesture,incident, connected to the child was on the frontpages of the papers.Now,I regularly read pakistani Newspapers and I have to say,if one followed just them,one would be hardput to find any such incident happening in India.The coverage was next to nothing.The contrast could'nt be starker.In addition to this,every month many such children who have heart problems,eye problems etc are treated in Bangalore.How would you interpret these acts of kindness and friendship from my people?This harldy fits your suggestion that Bangaloreans are prejudiced.Also, Should Indians,who follow Pakistani newspapers conclude,on the basis of no coverage in their media,that pakistanis are a bunch of ungrateful ingrates?Would that be a fair conclusion?
Secondly,I also take exception to this highly irrational approach to decipher the attitude of Indians to pakistanis in general.I believe Indians are relatively less emotional compared to pakistanis.I think we would prefer to have a more steady relationship with others than swing wildly from one end to another.Let me give you an analogy.Let us consider the average European with the average American.The European is relatively less expressive and less emotional than the American.For example if you were to meet an Englishman,he would appear a lot less friendly than the American.But who has built a better society?Where would a Muslim migrate given a choice between America and Europe?Needless to say majority would pick Europe.You are mistaking the facade of interpersonal skills for a core belief system.Indians may clap less when we lose a cricket match but we also provide humanitarian assistance without much fanfare.Let me give another analogy.I think the relationship that we want is similar to the one that an adult has with his parents.While loving his parents, he still sees them as human beings capable of making mistakes and balances his love with criticism as and when needed without going overboard.Whereas pakistanis seem to want a relationship that a five year old has with his parents.Going wild with joy if his dad buys him candy and throwing tantrums when he refuses to buy a toy.
I must also say that the pakistani press seems to give wide publicity to the graciousness of its own society which judiciously ignoring the ones by the Indians.Case in point is that during India's tour of pakistan,India's papers and magazines gave ample coverage to the hospitality of pakistan while the hospitality shown by the people of chandigarh towards the pakistani visitors during the current tour hardly got any media attention in pakistan.
May be we are more secure and don't really need to go over the top to show we care while pakistanis do.Or Is it because India and its society have a lot more to offer that just appreciation of cricketing talent and nothing else?
I presume you are a very busy man,but I would greatly appreciate it if you took the time out to consider the issues raised and gave a response or at the very least reconsider your conclusions about "prejudiced" Indians.
Dear Noiray,
Looks like the article has touched you deeply. That was the purpose of writing this article to provoke Indians and their pride in Indian values. This article has nothing to do with Pakistan or cricket, it is about India, it is addressed to Indians.I don't know if you are aware, but I too am from India in(Hyderabad)and understand what you have to say.
However, the arguments that I have made in this column are not unique, several Indian (Hindu) commentators too have made similar observations and you can read them if you followed the links in my article. The comment "kalija nahi hai" is from Calcutta's The Telegraph. My information about the silence in Bangalore too is from an Indian commentator.
After Gujarat 2002, the re-election of Modi, the enormous support for the man from American Indians [probably the most educated community in the world], I am slowly losing faith in the promise of India's pluralism and secularism.
Sure there are redeeming features in every society, you will find them if you go looking for them. But there are also warning signals and in this column I am asking the question, does the silence in Bangalore indicate a growing intolerance that is indicative of things to come.
I agree with you, one event or one episode does not prove anything, but you must have heard the phrase "dood ka jala..."
I have a terrible fear that the rise of Hindutva and Indian paranoid nationalism will result in a horrible event like the holocaust. Muslims will be slaughterred enmasse, their homes burnt, their properties and businesses destroyed...[sounds like Gujarat 2002] doesn't it?
I am willing to be proven wrong, I want to be proven wrong. Convince me that Gujarat will not happen again. Convince me that the rapists, murderers and arsonists of Gujarat are in jail and the society no longer supprorts them, or finances them, or votes for them and honors them..
Tell me why people like Bal Thakerey, and Narendra Modi are free and respected by so many...Of course I don't expect you to answer them, they are rhetorical questions, but they are reflective of my mood.
Why Indians detest Pakistanis more than the other way round.
This is easily explained. Pakistanis learn Pakistan ideology which teaches them to hate and denigrate their hindu ancestors and today’s hindus. But Pakistanis know in their hearts that this ideology is a big lie. Hence they have bad conscience towards their hindu siblings. Hence when Indians visit Pakistan they are treated well by Pakistanis. On the other hand hindus in India are taught by the Indian pseudo-secular muslim-appeasing government that islam is a good religion and the hindus know in their heart that this is a lie too. Hence Pakistanis (who are quislings of islamic-arabic imperialism living on original name-giving hindu lands, lands from where the hindus have been exterminated by the muslims) are not met with enthusiasm in India. This will remain so till Pakistanis reject islam (an alien arabic-ethno-fascist and imperialist ideology posing as a religion) and become normal honest relaxed human beings.
You will need a lot of courage and verve to accept this correct explanation openly and publicly. Try it if you want to do something real good for the people of the subcontinent.
I find it perfectly correct and just that Pakistanis are met with cold stares in India. The hindus – I don’t mean the pseudo-secular ones – are right in thinking of muslims in the sub-continent as quislings of an alien arab-imperialist ideology. Islam means submission, and an ideology with such a name is not going to bring dignity, honesty, freedoms and human rights to a people, but fascism. In fact Pakistan is a daily proof of the fact a that a good human society can not be founded or maintained on the basis of islam. Unfortunately 150 million human beings, citizens of Pakistan (descendants mostly of hindus), have to keep suffering to bring forth this proof. How long still?
Your problem Dr. Khan is no different to the expat Indian(Hindu) you allude to. Away from your millieu you take on an extremist position and distill everything down to a dichotomy - that results in redutio ad absurdum aside from hatred for all others than an imagined mirror of yourself. If you lived in India, you would be less ready to spout relentlessly about Kashmir (from a negative and anti-India) viewpoint as well consider Modi for what he is - an extremist with momentary legs. He needs to be held accountable but in the court of public opinion - he has already been forced to "moderate" his stance - hence your fears of a repeat Godhra are entirely unfounded.
Separately, your views on Islam and modernity - an area that you specialize in - reveals the hypocricy of many of your positions - whether they pertain to women and Islam or democracy and Islam. How ridiculous can one get in stating that Pakistan is moving towards democracy - your point in the debate with Daniel Pipes.
Sir,Thankyou for your response.I greatly appreciate it.
You have stated that the point you made in your column is not unique to yourself and they had been made by others also and you just picked it up from them.This still doesn't take anything away from my argument that its not sufficient information to arrive at a rational conclusion
regarding Indians' attitude toward pakistanis.It doesn't matter if it was made by Indians,Hindus,
or even Bangaloreans themselves.The merits(or in this case de-merits) still stand unaltered.
Just as erroneous as It would have been,to conclude from the overwhelmingly positive response of the Baby Noor episode,as a change in Indians' attitude toward pakistan as shift from hostility to
friendship,it is erroneous to conclude that Indians are prejudiced from the response of a cricket
crowd.There simply isn't sufficient information to arrive at an objective conclusion one way or another.
You have also stated that your reason for providing this particular cricketing example is just to indicate the growing communalisation of Indian society.Here the debate seems to have shifted from a discussion of the attituted of Indian and pakistani societies toward one another to an intra Indian one,concerning Hindus and Muslims.You have raised some questions at the end of your response and although you have said that you don't expect me to answer them,I will still make an attempt.
As I can understand,the riots in Gujarat seems to have had a deep impact on your Pysche.Like millions of other Indians I am ashamed and sorry that such a thing happened. Acts of such violence have no place in any society that wants to call itself civilized.I fully commiserate with you in mourning this tragedy.As for people like Modi they should be brought to trial and convicted of their crimes.As a democratically elected leader of the state his job was to provide security to all citizens and he has failed.I hold no brief for him.
As tragic as the whole episode was, it is still important that we try to look at it as objectively as possible.For instance,this was not the first riot that took place here.A worse act of rioting had taken place in '62 when Nehru was the PM.Infact,religious riots in India are not a new phenomenon.They have been taking place for nearly a hundred years now.There were riots before independence like the Mopla rebellion and riots preceding and during partition.All this when we
had leaders like Gandhi,Nehru,Patel and Jinnah who were all, while being secular,still used religion one way or another.There have been riots after '47.Like the ones in '62, '84, '93 and '02.Again,as horrendous these events are, terming them as genocide or holocaust is not appropriate.Genocide is what is happening in Sudan.Its what happened in Bangladesh in '71.Its when there is a comlete breakdown of system and there is a planned method to the madness.The scale is also important.This hardly happened in India.While some such characteristics can be observed in Gujarat, the fact that no rioting took place outside of that state is proof enough that it was local and limited.Please don't get me wrong,I am not being insenstive but there is a certain definition of terms like Genocide and Holocaust.And nowadays everything seems to have a genocide tag to it.Terming violence in India as anyone of these is just not right and is a disservice to the majority of Indians who do not approve of these.
As you can see,riots have taken place under all governments cutting across all political ideologies, irrespective of what each political party says.No one has been brought to justice.I think the American society provides a parallel.Just upto 30 years ago,segregation was in place in one form or the other and acts of violence against minorites was not uncommon,the most recent one in '92,LA.But while everyone was concerned,nobody blew them out of proportion.The fact that such acts were punished went a long way in assuaging the feelings of the minorities.But does that mean everything is honky dory?Are we absolutely sure that such rioting will not take place again?I don't think so.But effective management does provide one with a sense of reasonable degree of security.This is what we have to achieve in India.
I believe Communalisation of Indian society is not the main problem.Its just a symptom of a deeper malaise afflicting us.Primarily, illiteracy, poverty,corruption,frustration,failure of law and order and judicial mechanisms.These factors have overlapped to produce a population which feels trapped and has become easy pickings for demogogues. So,fighting against communalism is like treating just the symptoms without treating the disease.If we are to see an end to this, we need
to rectify the system such that the above problems are eliminated.
I also urge you to have more patience and not lose hope.As you have mentioned in your other articles, Indian society for all its problems is still an extremely tolerant one.The violence against muslims is getting more attention than previously because of the current world situation.But it would help if muslims did some introspection in this regard.Why is the world hostile to them?Especially in countries where they are minorities.After all there are lots of other minorities who seem to get along reasonably well with the majority.An example is the UK.
Both hindus and muslims came to UK around the same time and their condition was more or less the same.Yet while the hindus seem to have moved on since then,gaining education,wealth and contributing to the society,muslims seem to have got stuck without any progress.They also seem to have managed to create friction.Recall the rioting a couple of years ago.Now,I don't know who was responsible for this but at the end of the day,the fact still remains that the majority community there is more comfortable with hindus and less so with muslims.I also think the treatment of minorities in Muslim countries is a major ingredient in this antagonism toward muslims.For example muslims in India demand equal rights and they are given that, as they should be.But what about the rights of Hindus in Pakistan?Do they enjoy the same rights as muslims there?I know that you being a Muslim from India,it is unfair on my part to make you answerable for the shortcomings in that society but this is more a question from a Hindu to a Muslim.How long can muslims of the world keep demanding rights where they are minorities but act diametrically opposite when they are a majority?These are the questions that a lot of Hindus,Christians etc are beginning to ask.And I certainly don't think they are unreasonable.
Viewing the increased communalisation as something that is all pervasive and irreversible is a fallacy.Not only would this be wrong but also dangerous.It might well become a self fulfilling prophecy. Also someone,as yourself,who has been arguing on behalf of muslim society must guard against arriving at such conclusions.Because,if you believe the situation in India is hopeless,you are porviding tacit approval to all those who view muslim societies as obscrantist and fanatical with no hope of improvement and must be destroyed.
But this change will not come about anytime soon.We are in it for the long haul.So,I can't promise you that Modi et al. will be punished. But what I can promise is a sincere effort to address the root causes of the problem.In that,I believe,we will eventually be successful.Just as America was able to overcome Slavery and Segregation. I hope this answers some of your questions and more importantly allay some of your fears.
I asked this fellow 2 questions, and he would not answer:
1. Do you know how many Indians were in the Karachi stadium vs how many
Pakistanis where there in Bangalore stadium?
2.How can you conclude that
those cheering in Karachi stadium were indeed Pakistanis?
Yogesh if you followed the links and did the math you would know for sure. The Karachi stadium has a capacity of 35,000 and an estimated 8000 Indian fans visited Pakistan. When india won the entire stadium gave it a standing ovation.
The reports also say that people were throwing chocolates at Indian fans and the reports of Pakistani hospitality are many, free food, free rides, gifts etc..
How do you explain the silence and obvious lack of sportsmanship in the Bangalore stadium? by asserting that all those who clapped in Karachi were Indians?
One way to understand and sample the hatred that I am writing about is to read the post by Onest in these comments.
you failed to answer onest's blog - he made a good point. Was it too good for you?
Nioray has written eloquently about the real issues on this debate. I hope Dr. Khan, that you will consider the points he has raised in your writings . A good place to start is the issue of why Muslim society in the UK has progressed on sharply divergent paths. Even within themselves, Pakistanis, are worse off than Bangladeshis on almost any metric. The UK unlike France or Germany, has been far more inclusive of immigrants. Ditto for the US - just take a look at Bangladeshis vs Pakistanis in the greater New York area.
The larger issue also is the exclusionary nature of Muslim majority countries. Any society formed on an exclusionary idea is doomed to failure from within - a lack of competing ideas results in range of malaises - intolerance, bigotry and apathy among others. All brought about by the inability to take in empirical evidence from elsewhere.
Nioray has written eloquently about the real issues on this debate. I hope Dr. Khan, that you will consider the points he has raised in your writings . A good place to start is the issue of why Muslim society in the UK has progressed on sharply divergent paths. Even within themselves, Pakistanis, are worse off than Bangladeshis on almost any metric. The UK unlike France or Germany, has been far more inclusive of immigrants. Ditto for the US - just take a look at Bangladeshis vs Pakistanis in the greater New York area.
The larger issue also is the exclusionary nature of Muslim majority countries. Any society formed on an exclusionary idea is doomed to failure from within - a lack of competing ideas results in range of malaises - intolerance, bigotry and apathy among others. All brought about by the inability to take in empirical evidence from elsewhere.
A muslim is not free to admit that islam has failed. He must keep maintaining that it has not failed but is producing brilliances after brilliances.
That is their mindset even if they have a PhD degree.
M J Akbar, an exceptional indian muslim journalist, has said that muslims in India should consider themselves lucky that they live in a hindu majority land.
Few muslims will have the wisdom to recognise and accept this truth.
I find this defense of faschism, genocidal policies and minority harassment interesting -- "look at Muslim countries."
The whole world acknowledges that the civil rights situation in the Arab/Muslim world his horrendous. But it is India that masquerades as a secular democracy.
Now we here Hindutva advocayes defend fascism by saying look why blame us, even the Muslikm world is doing it.
Are countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia the role models that India is trying to emulate?
If not why point to them?
your response concerning a putative defense of facism is disappointing to the say least. Apart from one of your readers who ranted about the Arabs and Muslim culture, most others raised reasonable points that focus on existential issues.
It is also unfortunate that you choose to characterize India as a "masquerading secular democracy". The Hindutva crowd's biggest disservice is to give currency to such shallow and indeed baseless claims. Whether you are willing to concede it or not, opportunities for Muslims - without allusion to symbols such as Kalam, I.H. Latif or a Premji - in India are no more circumsribed than for any other community.
There is a compelling reason to point to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia -both are purveyors of virulence and terrorism that strikes at the heart of civilization whether in India or in the US. Were it not for Saudi money, the gleaming mosques of Bangalore or Kolkata would not exist. Unlike in the US, monitoring the hatred against unbelievers that is preached within some of them remains a task of the citizenry. We all know what an incessant flow of Wahhabi vitriol does to condition young minds. Pakistan's role in terrorism is of course limited to supplying the foot soldiers whether in Kashmir or the WTC. Just about every terrorist has found succour, money or ideology to carry on his murderous intent in that benighted land. It is simply astounding that you choose to ignore that with a unitary and unbalanced focus on India.
Ideasmarketplace, if tomorrow in response to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, the Americans start killing Muslims in Michigan and elsewhere, then the US would not remain a secular democracy where people enjoy freedoms.
Whatever justification you choose to give for Hindutva, Pakistan, Wahabism etc.. even though they themselves ground their motivations in indian culture and Hinduism and do not see themselves as a reaction to Saudi Arabia (the Sangh parivar and the RSS predate saudi oil wealth), the point reamisn the thousands of minorities get raped, murdered with the assitance of the state and no one has been punished in years. Now it is also apparent that Muslims had nothing to do with Godhra.
As long as Hindutva fascist continue to kill and rape minorities impassioned pelas such a look at others, or we are still great will sound hollow.
Dear Dr. Khan,
this is your blog and quite obviously you can choose to have the last word but I will finish with a couple of points in response to your previous post that mischaracterize my message.
I hold no brief for Hindutva or Modi - both have clearly done harm and no good to the Indian polity apart from the latter being directly responsible for the massacre. I was merely saying that the Hindutva agenda gives currency to the patently false notion that India is masquerading as a secular democracy. Despite Godhra, Indian Muslims - Shias or Sunnis - are arguably not in any state of existential peril and are in fact active participants in society at many levels.
Clearly far more needs to be done but my main issue with your arguments though is your clear abandonment and dismissal of India almost in preference to Pakistan as if the former were irremediable. That is hardly constructive.
On America, perhaps you should consider talking to the hundreds of Pakistani families rent asunder in the aftermath of 9/11 - arbitrarily deported to their native land in the name of fighting terrorism. They may not have had life and limb in danger, but for those who had staked all to live here, it was a cruel end to a dream. Yes the US is a secular country but, nowhere in India are you required to take swear to tell the truth in a court of law by invoking God - any god! May not mean much to you, but as an atheist, I find that practice in the US particularly offensive.
Regrettably, the only conclusion I can come to is that you do not have a reformist agenda but one unfortunately oriented towards besmirching the Indian state.
"Besmirching the Indian state"!
What besmiched the Indian state was:
(1) Blaming Godhra on Muslims
(2)The genocide in Gujarat 2002
(3) No one held responsible for the genocide, but Modi's being rewarded for it through re-election!
All I have stated is express afear that there is worst to come if thing scontinue as it is. And reading all the posts that continue to blame Muslism for india's problems merely affirms my fears.
As far as reform agenda is concerned, read the next article. But Ideasmarketpalce do come abck and continue this discussion.
I think Dr. Khan's observation gains even more credibility after the recent development: Disgruntled Indian fans disrupt the last cricket game by throwing bottles and trash on to the pitch as India succumbed a crushing defeat on April 17th. I feel sorry for the Indian fans who have been trying to argue with Dr. Khan on this blog. Maybe they should take some time for self-reflection and self-criticism because this kind of chauvinistic ideology where you are unwilling to hold your country accountable for any mistake / misdeed can only lead to more mishaps. I am not saying that Pakistanis are free from this blinding ideology; and that all Indians in general lack the ability to be self-critical of themselves and their country. All I am saying is that if you realize that your people or your country has done something wrong you should be able to just come out and say "It's wrong".
I have found some very interesting comments from people in this blog.
First of all let me introduce myself.I am a fourth yr electrical engg student at IIT Kharagpur(West Bengal).I guesss u people have heard of it.I originally hail from INdore a city in central India.
1> Let me deal with opportunities Muslims have in India.No one can deny the fact that except Army in allother institution Muslims are treated at par with other minorities.Here at IIT we have a largely respected PRof Farooqui as Dean of alumni matters and I despite being a RSS memeber is his favourite student.
2> Regarding Gujarat riots.First of we should define term riots.Riots occur when one community attack other and other retaliates.This is what happens in India.Genocide is one when one community goes on killing spree of other community .This is what happens in Bangladesh and Pakistan.
Gujjaratis are the most peaceful lot in India .It is the only state to have complete prohibition enforced right from independence and a prosperous and industrious state.
3> I come from a city where Muslims form less than 6% of population but I have seen in them typical behaviour of Indian Muslims which gives rise to what you call Hindutva.
I can still remember how Muslims in my neighbouhood rejoiced on Pakistan's win in Sharjah ( not one of Javed Miandad's SIX) but one in which Aqib Javed took a hattrick.
From all Muslim areas Hindus have sold their properties and moved out becoz of Muslim backlash at time of disturbances.
Another tendency of Muslims is to communalize each and ever minoe fight btw two persons.Two yrs back a merchant burrowed a large sum from a moneylender.When he defaulted on payments and declined to pay the money the moneylender sent a local goon to intimidate merchant( this is common practice as by courts u will end up spending more mney than recovering).But the merchant happened to be Muslim and lender Hindu so all muslims of the locality beat the goon to death .When police tried to came to his rescue Muslim women from all houses of locality threw stones and bricks at police and prevented them till they had killed him.
Now the question is why did they have store of stones and bricks in houses in a city with no history of communal riots.(Indore was peacefuleven during Babari agitations.)
4) ANother issue whixch agitates educated Indians everywher and especially in USA is our pseudosecular media.
Take for example Maqbool fida Hussain.He and Johny walker both comes fro mIndore.Being raised in a largely Hindu city and culture he must be knowing what importance Goddess Saraswati has for Hindus.But he painted a painting ,I have seen it myself,with a lady in Saraswati's sitting posteure,holding a veena with a Peacock,having a book and mala and naked.He just stopped short of naming it Saraswati.Now see his claim that he did not now that this might hurt Hindu sentiments.Even after protests he refused to apologise or tack back the painting.Recently he produsecd a movie MEENaxsi which had a song which used a phrase "noor uh Noor" which was used to describe beauty of heroine.Some moolahs claimed that same phrase was used for Prophet Muhammad in Quran and he promptly took back the movie.This is the attitude which makes Hindu feel likw minrity in Indai.
I have many such personal experiences to reccount and one of DR khan's Hyderabad also.But later
I am an Indian Muslim. My comments are posted at the web-link below under my name ie, Imran Khan
http://www.altmuslim.com/perm.php?id=1422_0_25_0_C
Regards
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